tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639021.post494892699033497775..comments2024-03-05T04:05:47.416-08:00Comments on The Wisdom of Ganesh: No, Really. What is SOAP? What is BPEL?prasadgchttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00179696156998026173noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639021.post-16536764357894051702008-01-02T15:03:00.000-08:002008-01-02T15:03:00.000-08:00Ganesh:well this is a tough question. It is like a...Ganesh:<BR/><BR/>well this is a tough question. It is like asking if Java or C# did not exist today, would we need to invent it? <BR/><BR/>I have fought the battle several years ago that BPEL was a "programming language" and had nothing to do in the Business Process Space. I fought this battle against people like Assaf Arkin, Frank Layman or Howard Smith, or even Edwin K. I won. It is commonly agreed today that BPEL is a language. Some people are still confused about how to use it, but this is a big progress compared to 5 years ago. <BR/><BR/>For me, if we did not have it, we would need something like BPEL (I don't want to say something exactly like BPEL, but I can live with it). <BR/><BR/>The major change between BPEL and Java/C# is that BPEL is a language where the message is a primary citizen along data and control structures. <BR/><BR/>For me "Remoting" has failed and will always fail. REST is successful at what it does because it assumes an application model and creates the middleware around it. The remoting guys have simply "remoted" the classical single threaded application model.<BR/><BR/>We need to move from a "remoting" mindset to an "inter-action" mindset. We need to define the most basic application model for composite information systems and then build the middleware around it (hopefully it is an extension of REST). This is exactly what I am trying to do with WSPER, I created a technology neutral, resource-centric, programming model and I am mapping it to WS-* (including SCA) as an inter-action focused middelware (not as a remoting middleware).<BR/><BR/>Anyways, if you read the wsper primer or my book, this should be a bit clearer.<BR/><BR/>BTW, we think a lot alike, we actually have very similar roles in life.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>JJ-Integral ):( Reportinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973062992107742075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639021.post-59571212356681547492008-01-02T14:36:00.000-08:002008-01-02T14:36:00.000-08:00JJ,Thanks, wsper is definitely on my to-read list....JJ,<BR/><BR/>Thanks, wsper is definitely on my to-read list. (So much to do!)<BR/><BR/>I'm not trying to kill BPEL. I'm wondering aloud if BPEL is required in its present form. In other words, if BPEL did not exist, would it be necessary to invent it (in its present form)?<BR/><BR/>I can see that something like a SOAP message would need to be invented if it didn't exist (a mechanism to transport XML payloads and also specify quality of service), but what about BPEL?<BR/><BR/>Should we instead view BPEL like XML Infoset, an abstract notation that can be translated into any physical execution language depending on the vendor implementation?<BR/><BR/>These are questions, not opinions.prasadgchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00179696156998026173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639021.post-66883289481675399352007-12-31T14:10:00.000-08:002007-12-31T14:10:00.000-08:00Ganesh:I don't know if you got some time to take a...Ganesh:<BR/><BR/>I don't know if you got some time to take a look at WSPER (http://www.wsper.org). WSPER contains a programming language that can be compiled in BPEL that is resource oriented. <BR/><BR/>The irony is that I don't think I can create an implementation of WSPER based on REST alone, but seem to work fine with WS-* (including SCA, SDO and BPEL).<BR/><BR/>I don't know why you want to kill BPEL. Nobody has ever said you had to code in "XML" and surely enough something like SimPEL provides no value add to it.<BR/><BR/>JJ-Integral ):( Reportinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03973062992107742075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639021.post-56341747753478737022007-12-27T23:48:00.000-08:002007-12-27T23:48:00.000-08:00You need to sign up to the Apache ODE list if you ...You need to sign up to the Apache ODE list if you haven't already. <BR/><BR/>There is some innovative work happening there on SimPEL that you might want to have a look at. <BR/><BR/>BPEL may deserve a death, but like JSF, it won't die easily. There is too much tooling and runtime investment by vendors for it to be wiped out in the next two years.<BR/><BR/>The ODE approach is to create a meta-language that let's developers express Processes without typing tag-intensive XML and then translate it into BPEL for engines to execute.<BR/><BR/>BPEL's value proposition used to be Portability. But the reality is that most BPEL engines add considerable "extensions" that the customer inevitably invokes resulting in lock-in. <BR/><BR/>I hope WS02 server doesn't get too good because it will get acquired by IBM and be "Blue Washed"!<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>Zubin Wadia<BR/>CTO<BR/>www.imagework.comZubin Wadiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03547079212723029279noreply@blogger.com